Curse

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk)Phoenix

have to say that most of ppl (not all, most of) screaming for a nerf here are probably just envious because: they dont have a sin or are not able to use it or haven't a guild who give them a chance to do any sort of sinway or maybe they simply tried it and die however (which is lol since u call it "godmode", saw too many failers sins in fow/uw these days, and obviously sometimes i fail too but i dont whine like that)

hell if u dont want to run SF there's no problem, but u can't scream for a nerf just because u envious that others (more nerds and, only sometimes, more skilled than u) spend lot of their time on improving their abilities on playing a perma! and than get their results (high-end items in very short time) (go wastes with a perma without a training and tell me how much u last with ur freaky "godmode" if u dont know when and where to use it, it's not so simple!)

is like crying because 1 of ur friends (in real life) has a better job than u, probably works 12hrs/day, have studied more than u and now he has a big house, a cool car, ecc ecc.. and u dont have... obvious! he endeavored much more than u!

Really?

"People want SF nerfed because they can't do it"...really?

Guess I'll go back to the reasoning for not adding the Base Defender as a henchmen. Whether or not "you don't have to use it", games still need to retain some semblance of balance between available builds and playstyles (and no, soloing a place designed for 8 people isn't a playstyle). SF destroys anything that even resembled balance in PvE (though, it is far from being the only one...but it is the most dominant).

Otherwise, yes, let's make a Base Defender into a hench, because hell, if you don't like it, don't use it. Everyone deserves to beat the game right?

My Inner Ninja · Dec 11, 2009, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

you need to accept that casual players are not meant to play areas that are designed to be "hardcore" content. accept that, and you'll be all the happier. after all, not everyone gets to be a heart surgeon; nor does everyone get to win the mATs. it takes a certain amount of dedication to become good at something. even then, at the end of the day, you really aren't missing much. after all, does the end reward from playing these areas actually make your character statistically better? no, it doesn't. therefore, it's not like you are missing out on essential content.

you also claim that you dislike the mudslinging that comes with every online community, yet you come here and start slinging your own. you are exactly what you claim to hate. does that mean you hate yourself? if not, isn't that a little hypocritical?

"On the contrary, it is rife with politics, social stratification, snobbery and the sort of selfish, deluded, condescending, bellends that most of us try to escape. The sort that ruins things for everyone and pat themselves on the back for a job well done, only to later wax lyrically about the good ole days in proper nostalgic refrains."

that, and other useless things in your post does not contribute to your argument. it takes away from them. i suggest you refrain from posting until you can argue without resorting to such shallow and baseless attacks.

That's it? That's your argument for exclusivity? And you wonder why I address your like in the manner that I do. It is exactly the argument I was expecting from the "shadow form ate my baby brigade" which only confirms my belief that the community is tainted beyond repair. According to your reasoning Perma Shadow Form is a casual player invention that "hardcore players" detest and won't touch. If that was true I would pack up and walk away quietly, but it is not. The meta is fueled by the egos of hardcore gamers who want to gain recognition for making the latest and greatest farming build. The meta is their baby. So tell me, why is UWSC good for Peter but not for Paul when the same opportunity to do it is available to both? Because Paul can't commit 12 hours a day to the game is not reason enough. You want recognition for creating great builds; fine, have it; and thank you. Unfortunately, you can't expect to retain that exclusive status as masters of the high end or "hardcore" areas (as you put it) once you release your trade secrets to the masses and bask in their collective ovation. Simply put, you can't have your cake and eat it too. As a result, "mudslinging," as you call it, is standard protocol. I mean, if you are going to bring real world elements into the game (these separatist ideals that you cling to) you should expect real world reactions. Therefore, I gladly sling mud, the pigs on the receiving end love it.

Oh yes, play the victim here. Of course, after all the vicious Perma Sinners ate your baby.

Cheeva B · Dec 11, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jk)Phoenix

have to say that most of ppl (not all, most of) screaming for a nerf here are probably just envious because: they dont have a sin or are not able to use it or haven't a guild who give them a chance to do any sort of sinway or maybe they simply tried it and die however (which is lol since u call it "godmode", saw too many failers sins in fow/uw these days, and obviously sometimes i fail too but i dont whine like that)

hell if u dont want to run SF there's no problem, but u can't scream for a nerf just because u envious that others (more nerds and, only sometimes, more skilled than u) spend lot of their time on improving their abilities on playing a perma! and than get their results (high-end items in very short time) (go wastes with a perma without a training and tell me how much u last with ur freaky "godmode" if u dont know when and where to use it, it's not so simple!)

is like crying because 1 of ur friends (in real life) has a better job than u, probably works 12hrs/day, have studied more than u and now he has a big house, a cool car, ecc ecc.. and u dont have... obvious! he endeavored much more than u!

you use 3 skills to keep from being cast at and hit, thats "more skilled"? lol, seriously. I'm not envious by far, I do have a perma but also like to play other character classes. That, in turn, makes me "more skilled" than you sucka! =) Besides, to be "more skilled" wouldn't you need to come up with your own skill bar? rather than plugging into what someone else devised?

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Excluding those "terrible" players because they use SF? I can also argue that a 55 build or 600/smite build and many other farming builds are also overpowered.

Why dont you come straight and just say it out? Exclude all pug players and make all elite areas like DoA where pugs are almost non-existant! Is that what we want? Another ghost town?

But yes, you may as well exclude all PuGs. The average GW player is absolutely terrible at the game. Maybe increased difficulty would persuade them to move on from their Mending/Dolyak Signet build. Maybe. I'm not really sure how giving them an "I WIN" button is going to make them better at the game, it just takes away any need to be somewhat intelligent, and just lets you drool on the keyboard for victory.

Daesu · Dec 11, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I never said 55monk players are somehow really great at the game. Not sure if you are retarded or what, but nice assumption anyway.

But yes, you may as well exclude all PuGs. The average GW player is absolutely terrible at the game. Maybe increased difficulty would persuade them to move on from their Mending/Dolyak Signet build. Maybe. I'm not really sure how giving them an "I WIN" button is going to make them better at the game, it just takes away any need to be somewhat intelligent, and just lets you drool on the keyboard for victory.

Then you are the average GW player and you just insulted yourself to be absolutely terrible at the game. You want a game with increased difficulty? Go play chess, not GW. Then if you are good enough in it, you can take part in competitions and prove your e-peen in the process. Nobody wants to see your e-peen here.

mrvrod · Dec 11, 2009, 09:21 AM // 09:21

All I can say is: If after the UWSC fix, anet still nerfs SF, it has nothing to do with protecting ectos, and everything to do with pandering to the elite few.

upier · Dec 11, 2009, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Correction...it will, hopefully, exclude terrible players from it that are incapable of doing it to begin with.

In which case, I say bring it on.

If you are willing to support exclusion of players - did you ever ask yourself what if you are too good for this game?
That this game is not what you want?

My Inner Ninja · Dec 11, 2009, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Bolded for you. Don't say you don't envy something, just to call it a "pleasure" soon after. So that's about it. You're basically saying: "Elitists exist! I'm not like them! Shadow Form is an equalizer: I can be as nasty as an elitist, so it's fine."

You don't need a single minute of farm in GW to play effectively. You can do it if you like, but if you find bling and flashing items attractive, that has probably more to do with their perceived image amongst the playerbase. You don't need an Obsidian Edge to play. I hardly believe anyone would ever craft Obsidian Armor or Chaos Gloves if they weren't so expensive. It's just show-off. You want the show-off without even the effort. As I said, go for it. I don't care. I don't like elitism as well, yet I don't go after it.

The simple fact some content IS in the game DOESN'T mean you MUST be able to access it whatever the case. No "hardcore area" is mandatory in the game, no hi-end weapon is, this kind of content was designed with a simple equation in mind: bigger effort = higher reward.

You're basically taking the "bigger effort" part down. Fine with me: no effort = no value to me, so you can get multiple Obsidian Armors for your shortcut elitism, that will just make you an elitist-wannabe yourself. Final word to the developers, who mantain the game and have the right to decide if that's they way they want it to be played.

You have a point in there somewhere but it is clouded by the "us vs the others" philosophy that you cling to. One thing that I have maintained throughout my discussions is not making an assumption on how the game should be played because you can only play what is given to you. SF is available to everyone and, yes, it gives everyone a chance at farming in elite areas and gathering elite items. Don't be mistaken my friend, farming FoW, The Underworld and owning Obsidian armor and Chaos Gloves does not automatically make one a member of the elite crowd. These things are simply designed and labeled Elite by the developers. They are not exclusive, not to Perm Sinners and anyone with even a slight imagination. It turns out that Perma Sins are very effective farmers and thus are able to achieve high end ornaments faster. Still it does not happen overnight and it is not automatic.

Last time I checked there were 8 sins in a SoOsc party and the end chest is still random. I only got my first BDS drop in October after hundreds of runs both in 600/smite and SoOsc teams. I have had more luck with the ZChest than all the elite area chests combined. Furthermore, myself and most people I know don't even bother farming ectos because trading for them with finds from farming or the ZChest is so much easier. Moreover, it is not the possessions that makes one elite, but rather the attitude towards these possessions. For some it is purely cosmetic but others attribute godlike status to them. For better of worse, some people are just selfish and pompous.

Greater effort = greater reward is all well and good. By the same token, any effort deserves some reward. Random drops, random drops, random drops. The game decides who gets what, where, and when. Therefore, you can't base an argument for removing an efficient farming build on the devaluing of a few non consequential items such as, diamonds and onyx, and ignore that feathers and iron have compensated for this. I won't even address the SF is "god mode" argument by saying more than "huh?"

Still, I am confused. You see, you call for rewards for hardcore, high time investment players, but aren't these the same lot who use farming builds more than anyone else? Or are you trying to tell me that hardcore gamers forsake "shortcuts" and only use balanced team builds? Yea, right.

Perhaps, and I am breaking my rule of not lending to the Anet think tank, the answer is having more restrictions on high end areas and dungeons, such as, how many times per day/week a player/character may access them. That way hardcore grinders will feel justified when the find their prizes, can take full advantage of the time allotment on different characters while Speed Clearers will have their chance without disrupting the status quo and will most probably likely not attempt these same areas on other characters.

mrvrod · Dec 11, 2009, 12:23 PM // 12:23

One final thought for the day. Make all rare items customized to the account it dropped for. This way, rare farming is for the express purpose of getting something for yourself. People can still make a living charging for runs and rep farming, selling crafting materials and max commons, and farming for themselves.

There is no need for tons of ecto in storage, because you can't buy that rare item, only earn it. Everything else you need to buy for gold is relatively cheap, so no more need for gold sellers...they'll be gone in weeks. no gold sellers, far fewer stolen accounts. only the random douche looking to ruin someone's day. and finally the economy will stabalize!

Will this get done? No. Too many of you want to be the next Bill Gates of Guild Wars.

Gill Halendt · Dec 11, 2009, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by My Inner Ninja

You have a point in there somewhere but it is clouded by the "us vs the others" philosophy that you cling to.

Not quite. I'm not "us" nor "the others". I'm probably one of the few players around who never considered farming at all, since I don't even have the time to,

Actually, my position is:

- Shadow Form is admitedly absurd. That's a fact, builds revolving around Shadow Form are more than just efficient. I think something could be done since Shadow Form as it is goes against a lot of designed game mechanics and all. That seems to be the position of the developers as well: farming is tolerated, as long as it doesn't reach certain levels. Looks like Perma even exceded them. And no, sorry, but they're not basing their decisions on those elitists moaning about SF. Seems like it's the other way round: check Lindsey's position about Shadow Form and what prevented them from nerfing it so far... This is not me saying how this game is to be played. You can't really believe Anet is going to sit there and watch for ever... Watch people playing their game in a way they haven't purposedly designed without intervention.

- I won't lose my sleep if this doesn't happen though. I'm all for the "don't like it, don't use it" approach, since I don't give a thing about game accomplishments or hi-end items. They don't prove anything to me, nor I think anything is to be proven at all. It's a GAME. Anything coming from huge ammounts of time spent on a game - be it farming or playing balanced - just tells this: "I've played this game a lot". It doesn't make you "leet", what ever the route you chose to obtain your accomplishments and goodies. ALT+F4 and GW is gone untill you load it again, and any leetness goes with it.

What I've been trying to say is: SF exists, even tough I believe it should never have existed as it is now, but that's just me. Play it if you like. Don't bitch if you don't like it. Don't moan if they nerf it, since developers are clearly not supporting this playstyle and it's probably just a matter of time because they forcefully stop it. Simple as that.

Oh, about restrictions... I'm no farmer and I could afford pretty much everything I wanted anyway. I'm not in a huge guild either. We're more or less 8 people. Those are my friends. Playing with great people worth my time allowed me to experience ALL the content of this game without being restricted ONCE. My friends wanted ME to play with them, not my characters. You don't really need Perma for this, all you need is better friends and playmates.

That's up to you tough, your choice. I'll never question it. Have fun while you can, just like me.

Jk)Phoenix · Dec 11, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheeva B

you use 3 skills to keep from being cast at and hit, thats "more skilled"? lol, seriously. I'm not envious by far, I do have a perma but also like to play other character classes. That, in turn, makes me "more skilled" than you sucka! =) Besides, to be "more skilled" wouldn't you need to come up with your own skill bar? rather than plugging into what someone else devised?

A better job....did you get fired or something? lol, it's ok, let it out on guru man, you'll be ok. Tissue?

if u read my post i write "more skilled" after a big MAYBE and between ( ), it's a really minor part of my tought, and i also have 8 other chars that i use, and i dont even told i'm more skilled than anyone but IF U WANNA READ ONLY WHAT U WANNA READ, and not the rest it's not my fault...
it's not a fault of gamers if a skill like SF is avaiable and it's not a crime or a cheat use it, they gave us it, we use it, they gave as ursan, we used it and so on from the begin of the game!
so stfu child

ps: i'm in the guild who developed that team-build so i'm not here just devising what someone else did as u think.

nothinisfree · Dec 11, 2009, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Hello I have read almost all of the comments on this thread all of which make a great point 1 way or the other. However coming from someone who has played the game for over 3 years as a pug player no guild and no active freinds to do organized SC's. It is very frustrating to take2-3 hours of my time to do an elite mission or area ( Uw,FoW.DoA) to fail. For a long time I stopped playing them to prevent wasting my time.

So my point is SF gives a chance for real pug players to do elite stuff and actully have a shot at a nice title or rare weapon. For anyone with some common sense y would I go for a title if it is going to take 500 hours what normal casual player can do that? So I never bothered but since the SF era it is possible and now I play more andenjoy the game more.

Just an example. Yesterday 5 Pug FoWsc groups 1 actual clear so by the time I pay for cons and the time spent makin groups still not really a 20min clear is it and cost me 5k or so to get a chest that was crap(that's fine) it is the point that at least I had a shot a couple times not just one 3 hour epic fail.

Hope this helps anet

w00t! · Dec 11, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

It's a shame that what could be a rational debate boils down to pure flame-fests and nonsense.

Feel free to debunk this irrational argument, which I made earlier in this circular thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

Personally, I could care less about the economics of SF or any other farming build, solo or team. If you want to grind out lots of virtual cash, more power to you. As we all know, collector's items are just as effective as BDS's and other high-value skins.

Where I do have a problem with SF and other similar skills (i.e. Ursan) is when it affects gameplay. Most of the arguments for SF are of the "don't screw with my farming, and quit QQ'ing" variety, but they fail to address the gameplay aspect.

Whenever builds predominate such that, if you're not using cut/paste PvXwiki builds, you can't get into a group, then that sucks the fun out of the game. It's always been there in some form (tank/spank, ursan, etc), but SF has taken it to the level of the absurd.

Does anyone realistically believe that Anet ever intended for UW to be completed in 15 mintues or less? And can you blame them if they make changes (either by nerfing SF, or countering specific builds) that makes Elite areas Elite again?

That, in short, is my problem with imbalanced skills such as SF.

I'd like to see a reasoned response to that argument, as most of the responses were of the juvenile variety.

Kaleban · Dec 11, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

I'd like to see a reasoned response to that argument, as most of the responses were of the juvenile variety.

I'll give it a go!

I think most, including myself will agree that Shadow Form, as a skill by itself is fine. Even combined with Deadly Paradox, its fine, because there's still a window where you're extremely vulnerable. Shadow Form fits "aesthetically" as a Sin skill because in theory it could allow a Sin to shadowstep in, kill its target and get out, before the duration expires.

However, as with MANY builds in the game (not just SF), the introduction of OP PvE skills, EoTN skills, consets and more changed the landscape. For example, I'll compare "perma" builds:

Shadow Form:

Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox, Shadow Form

OB Flesh:

Glyph of Swiftness, Obsidian Flesh

Now the difference becomes obvious at first. Shadow Form is nearly complete immunity barring AoE and Signets, whereas OF is only against spells. However it does include added armor.

Where the comparison breaks down is when you add in other skills. A Sin, if trying to farm or do damage, has to cart along PvE skills like "By Ural's Hammer" or EBSOH, along with Glyph of Lesser Energy for e-management. The Ele, conversely, has only to bring Stoneflesh Aura for anti-physical (and if running 330 HP is basically immune), along with Stone Strike and Mantra of Earth for virtually infinite energy. Which leaves 3 skills for damage, whether Mesmer CoP variants or Sliver Armor and AoE burst skills.

Add in the fact that Eles have much higher energy naturally, and its easy to see Eles as being more versatile, except in heavy interrupt areas, but of course there are builds for that too.

The point of all this is that a Permasin is not the ultimate PvE build, if that were the case, then when I login to Spamadan, I should only see Assassins, when actually I see very few. The counter is that they're all in high end areas, forming 8 sin teams to steamroll areas, but ToA, DoA and other Elite areas are basically ghost towns.

You know its bad when you login to a main hub like Lion's Arch, and for the entire American continent there's only one district that's not even full.

So the cause of the problem was ANet introducing skills and items that unbalanced the accepted status quo, where Sins were not allowed in parties, anywhere. And now, because all the Eles, Monks and Wammos have been supplanted by Sins, there's a lot of butthurt (lol) being spread around by these former elitists who for once are not picked first for the teams anymore.

I don't know what to say to all the SF haters anymore. Their arguments are generally designed to derail the conversation, by misquoting and taking out of context, and rather than trying to reach a compromise, they seem content just to dpread discord and malcontent.

In response to thos who claim I'm nothing but a Permasin, well all I can say is you're wrong, making baseless assumptions and not contributing anything to the thread. My Assassin is a daggersin, I did not fall into the trap of using bows and scythes to get invites, although I don't begrudge anyone who does, daggers are just my playstyle. And that's an important point, I don't care how others play, if they wanna perma UW all day, how does it possibly affect me? Apart from making ecto prices drop, and causing all these "powertraders" (lol, like its some important knock off of Wall Street, how lame is that?) to whine about the "economy" of Barbie dresses, for me there is no effect, AT ALL.

And that's the real issue at hand. No matter HOW the SF haters whine about how SF is unfair, what it comes down to is it has zero effect on your gameplay. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that if these haters play with like minded people, then none of them are using SF and its not affecting them. The only way it could is if they're jealous about the times, but since its a game, and there's no competition in PvE, then its irrelevant except if they're worried about the length of their e-peens, which is just a whole extra dimension of lameness.

Golgotha · Dec 11, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00t!

Feel free to debunk this irrational argument, which I made earlier in this circular thread:

I'd like to see a reasoned response to that argument, as most of the responses were of the juvenile variety.

What you're arguing is against whatever the current meta is. That will always be the issue. Once a meta is discovered as the most efficient way to go about any area, that will be the required setup for almost any PUG. So once SF is nerfed, you'll be the same one calling for a nerf of whichever meta builds spawn next... Just like SF came to power after Ursan's nerf. This makes no sense and is a cycle of ignoring the main issue -- the lack of updates to the area and mobs to combat current metas that have existed for some time now.

There simply is not enough variety in the end-game to keep the average user's interest outside of pushing for the best time possible. This will continue after SF's nerf regardless of what many here will say. The outcome will be just the same as it is now, whichever builds are listed on PvX will be required in the PUG's. It's not because they're lazy, but due to not knowing the other players it's the most fail safe solution.

Whether or not it was created with that type of time in mind is irrelevant. They created the skills (and in SF's case, rebuffed it) that caused the time to be shorter and shorter. As I said before, they've combated this in the past many times by changing or adding mobs, why could they not do that effectively for UW? They in fact made it more difficult to balanced groups while adding little difficulty to UWSC's with the skeletons.

Any player with half a mind can devise skill updates that could eliminate SF's dominance in high end areas without making it more difficult for balanced groups. Again, why can't Anet?

It boils down to the fact that SF's dominance in elite areas is an issue, not the skill itself. Nerfing it across the board is heavy-handed and not well thought out. I still contest that if all professions were able to maintain SF, this would not be an issue.

lishi · Dec 11, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'll give it a go!

I think most, including myself will agree that Shadow Form, as a skill by itself is fine. Even combined with Deadly Paradox, its fine, because there's still a window where you're extremely vulnerable. Shadow Form fits "aesthetically" as a Sin skill because in theory it could allow a Sin to shadowstep in, kill its target and get out, before the duration expires.

However, as with MANY builds in the game (not just SF), the introduction of OP PvE skills, EoTN skills, consets and more changed the landscape. For example, I'll compare "perma" builds:

Shadow Form:

Glyph of Swiftness, Deadly Paradox, Shadow Form

OB Flesh:

Glyph of Swiftness, Obsidian Flesh

Now the difference becomes obvious at first. Shadow Form is nearly complete immunity barring AoE and Signets, whereas OF is only against spells. However it does include added armor.

Where the comparison breaks down is when you add in other skills. A Sin, if trying to farm or do damage, has to cart along PvE skills like "By Ural's Hammer" or EBSOH, along with Glyph of Lesser Energy for e-management. The Ele, conversely, has only to bring Stoneflesh Aura for anti-physical (and if running 330 HP is basically immune), along with Stone Strike and Mantra of Earth for virtually infinite energy. Which leaves 3 skills for damage, whether Mesmer CoP variants or Sliver Armor and AoE burst skills.

Add in the fact that Eles have much higher energy naturally, and its easy to see Eles as being more versatile, except in heavy interrupt areas, but of course there are builds for that too.

The point of all this is that a Permasin is not the ultimate PvE build, if that were the case, then when I login to Spamadan, I should only see Assassins, when actually I see very few. The counter is that they're all in high end areas, forming 8 sin teams to steamroll areas, but ToA, DoA and other Elite areas are basically ghost towns.

You know its bad when you login to a main hub like Lion's Arch, and for the entire American continent there's only one district that's not even full.

So the cause of the problem was ANet introducing skills and items that unbalanced the accepted status quo, where Sins were not allowed in parties, anywhere. And now, because all the Eles, Monks and Wammos have been supplanted by Sins, there's a lot of butthurt (lol) being spread around by these former elitists who for once are not picked first for the teams anymore.

I don't know what to say to all the SF haters anymore. Their arguments are generally designed to derail the conversation, by misquoting and taking out of context, and rather than trying to reach a compromise, they seem content just to dpread discord and malcontent.

In response to thos who claim I'm nothing but a Permasin, well all I can say is you're wrong, making baseless assumptions and not contributing anything to the thread. My Assassin is a daggersin, I did not fall into the trap of using bows and scythes to get invites, although I don't begrudge anyone who does, daggers are just my playstyle. And that's an important point, I don't care how others play, if they wanna perma UW all day, how does it possibly affect me? Apart from making ecto prices drop, and causing all these "powertraders" (lol, like its some important knock off of Wall Street, how lame is that?) to whine about the "economy" of Barbie dresses, for me there is no effect, AT ALL.

And that's the real issue at hand. No matter HOW the SF haters whine about how SF is unfair, what it comes down to is it has zero effect on your gameplay. ESPECIALLY considering the fact that if these haters play with like minded people, then none of them are using SF and its not affecting them. The only way it could is if they're jealous about the times, but since its a game, and there's no competition in PvE, then its irrelevant except if they're worried about the length of their e-peens, which is just a whole extra dimension of lameness.

So if we change SF in.

You are immune from spells, you gain +30 mana, you movement speed is halved.

It will be fine?

No, because for the people using shadow form it will be the equivalent of a nerf.

Kaleban · Dec 11, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

So if we change SF in.

You are immune from spells, you gain +30 mana, you movement speed is halved.

It will be fine?

No, because for the people using shadow form it will be the equivalent of a nerf.

Wow really? I typed all that out and thats what you come away with? I spelled it out for you!

There are 8 skills. SF is more powerful in certain respects than OF. Just like all skills have varying degrees of power, if they did not, then making "builds" would be pointless!

A Permasin's bar is taken up by sub-par e-management and skills to maintain SF and buff the one damage skill usually. An OF Ele on the other hand only needs about half the bar for "immunity" and e-management altogether, and thus can take more offensive skills, combined with higher natural energy.

I wish you all would stop acting like SF is somehow morally bankrupt, its not. Its the people in the game that suck.

Yelling @ Cats · Dec 11, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

There are 8 skills. SF is more powerful in certain respects than OF. Just like all skills have varying degrees of power, if they did not, then making "builds" would be pointless!

This is again, terrible logic.

If skills have varying degrees of power, they actually make the whole build creation process useless...since it is better to just put the 8 strongest skills on your bar and rape face.

w00t! · Dec 11, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

What you're arguing is against whatever the current meta is. That will always be the issue.

True. But only when it is seriously unbalanced. And as Kaeban put is so well (in an argument in favor of SF), it's really the PvE skill introduction that threw things out of whack, both for SF and other builds. Discord anyone?

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Originally Posted by Golgotha

Once a meta is discovered as the most efficient way to go about any area, that will be the required setup for almost any PUG. So once SF is nerfed, you'll be the same one calling for a nerf of whichever meta builds spawn next...

True, if it seriously unbalances the game.

A simple question which seems to be ignored in this argument. Do you feel that Anet ever intended for Elite areas to be cleared in less than 15 minutes? And if not, can you blame them for either modifying those areas, the monster AI, or a skill combination that causes this imbalance?

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Originally Posted by Golgotha

As I said before, they've combated this in the past many times by changing or adding mobs, why could they not do that effectively for UW? They in fact made it more difficult to balanced groups while adding little difficulty to UWSC's with the skeletons.

Yeah, the law of unintended consequences. In trying to combat one skill combination, they mess up other stuff.

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Originally Posted by Golgotha

It boils down to the fact that SF's dominance in elite areas is an issue, not the skill itself. Nerfing it across the board is heavy-handed and not well thought out. I still contest that if all professions were able to maintain SF, this would not be an issue.

I agree with the first part. Sins are really best at PvP and got no love in PvE until Perma SF. So I'd hate to see a nerf that killed their usefulness in PvE. But Sins were designed to be gankers, not tankers, so something that moves them back in that direction would be nice.

w00t! · Dec 11, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

I'll give it a go!

I think most, including myself will agree that Shadow Form, as a skill by itself is fine. Even combined with Deadly Paradox, its fine, because there's still a window where you're extremely vulnerable. Shadow Form fits "aesthetically" as a Sin skill because in theory it could allow a Sin to shadowstep in, kill its target and get out, before the duration expires.

However, as with MANY builds in the game (not just SF), the introduction of OP PvE skills, EoTN skills, consets and more changed the landscape.

Absolutely agree.

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

For example, I'll compare "perma" builds:

Shadow Form:
OB Flesh:

Where the comparison breaks down is when you add in other skills.

The only problem I have with your comparison is that you're basically comparing solo farming builds. I could care less about farming, as I stated previously. Farm your heart out, get uber rich. I'm sure you are already, as anyone who's played 4+ years and isn't is doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

The point of all this is that a Permasin is not the ultimate PvE build, if that were the case, then when I login to Spamadan, I should only see Assassins, when actually I see very few. The counter is that they're all in high end areas, forming 8 sin teams to steamroll areas, but ToA, DoA and other Elite areas are basically ghost towns.

That's the basis of the problem I have. They've reduced Elite areas to PvX wiki c-space zombie teams.

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

So the cause of the problem was ANet introducing skills and items that unbalanced the accepted status quo, where Sins were not allowed in parties, anywhere.

I agree that I'd hate to see Sins nerfed to the point where we can't play them in PvE. Rebalanced would be best.

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

And that's the real issue at hand. No matter HOW the SF haters whine about how SF is unfair, what it comes down to is it has zero effect on your gameplay.

First, I'm not an SF hater. But I think that the argument you made above about the combination with PvE skills has made it imbalanced.

Second, SF has affected my gameplay. I am no longer able to play in the elite areas (PUG at least) unless I have a specific cookie-cutter build that takes no imagination whatsoever to use. That sucks the fun out of the game.

Good discussion though.